263: How to be seen as an expert online | Penny Locaso 

"The more you know, the more you know what you don't know" - does this concept hold you back from being seen online? 

When we gain knowledge, we often become more aware of what we don't know, leading to self-doubt and imposter syndrome. 

But what if this is holding us back from creating the impact we're meant to have?

In this episode, I chat with behavioral scientist and impact expert Penny Lacasso about her groundbreaking research into why women struggle to identify as experts. 

We dive into the four key themes from her "Hidden Figures" white paper and discuss how women can overcome these barriers to own their expertise. This is a must-listen for anyone building a personal brand! 

If you LOVED this part of your trip (the episode), make sure you share this on your Instagram stories and tag us @contentqueenmariah and @hackinghappyco⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠GET ACCESS TO OUR FREE AUDIO GUIDE - CONTENT STRATEGY IN YOUR EARS⁠

KEY EPISODE TAKEAWAYS 👇

✨ Why we struggle to label ourselves as experts

✨ How to be more authentic online 

✨ Advice for any entrepreneur building an online business and a personal brand 

✨ How to use your voice for impact 

SHOW RESOURCES 👇

If you like this episode, don't forget to share it to your Instagram stories and tag me⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @contentqueenmariah⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!

Other than that, enjoy - chat next week 💕

ABOUT THE GUEST

Penny Locaso is a highly credentialed behavioural scientist, impact expert and mentor with proven results for myself and thousands of women around the globe.

Hacking Happy Co was born out of my desire to blow up the echo chamber of the same voices shaping our future by providing more opportunities for diverse women, to confidently own their voice as an expert and become role models for the next generation of impact makers!

If you’re ready to turn your intentions into impact and start living your legacy by standing fully in your voice you’ve come to the right place with Penny. 

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

This is episode 263 and we're talking about being seen as an expert in your field for impact with the incredible Penny Lacasso. Welcome to the Content Queen podcast. I'm your host, Mariah, entrepreneur, storyteller, digital nomad, creator of content, bootcamp and founder of Content Queen. I'm here to teach you how to share your unique story, create content and market your business with strategy through the channels that work for you.

Each week I'll deliver a story to help you connect to a powerful strategy around marketing, business and content creation. I'm also joined by amazing souls and entrepreneurs who are here to share their own journey. Along with actual steps to help you take your business to a whole new level through amazing storytelling, powerful online marketing, and content strategy.

Let's do it! Hello everyone! Alright, quick update on the meta front. If you listened to the last episode, my meta did in fact get, uh, taken down. I got caught up in a false community breach, but I'm back. I'm back on said meta. Well, it was actually more Instagram.  Anyway, thank you everyone for messages and reaching out.

It's been very nice. Um, but there's a lot to learn from this. So I am taking some time to think about what that looks like for my content strategy. My content strategy is very diverse, so it won't take me long, but I'm just giving some space and I'll see where I put my energy. Of course, um, I always advocate for, you know, not putting all your eggs in one basket.

But of course, there's always that one, you know, social channel or channel that you do show up on more than others. So that was Instagram for me. So I'm just saying it could be it. I'm not sure, but, uh, I will still be on social media, so I can still tell you to follow me there. But, uh, yeah, I'm just thinking about what that can look like for me.

And it's just a good. Reminder for everyone that you can take a break from these channels and it's not going to make or break your business. If it does, then we need to talk. We need to chat, seriously.  But that's not what we came here for. We came to talk about expertise being seen as an online expert.

Now,  this guest, Penny, the amazing Penny, she talks about the concept that expertise is something, is a word that especially women do not resonate with.  But we do want to be seen or have impact in our field. So  there's a level of ownership that we take in this process to feel like we are quote unquote enough to be seen as an expert.

Now, one of my bucket list items, just a little insight into my life. When I wrote my bucket list, I have a little bucket list on my notes app.  I wrote it in, I'm going to say 2017, 18, 19, around that time, when I was really into like intense goal setting. Um,  I wrote one thing on my to do list, which is item six, do something in my job that is memorable in the industry.

I don't know what that looks like. I'm not sure if I'll ever feel like I'm enough to tick it off. I think there's a lot of work to be done to tick that item off. But this is exactly what Penny talks about, right? Needing to tick all the items, but checklist items in order to be seen as an expert or a thought leader.

So I had to get Penny on to talk about this because I know  there's a lot of us that have a lot of doubt because of the concept. The more you know, the more you know what you don't know.  Meaning  when you start to learn more and become more of a quote unquote expert. Or a thought leader in your field, the more you realize, Oh, well, I don't know enough.

So who am I to do this? Or who am I to do that? And it can be very paralyzing when it comes to showing up online on social media, building a personal brand,  that doubt can be very paralyzing.  So let's hear from Penny.  Penny LaCasso is a highly credentialed behavioral scientist, impact expert, and mentor with proven results for herself and thousands of women around the globe.

Hacking HappyCo, her business, was born out of a desire to blow up the echo chamber of the same voices shaping our future by providing more opportunities for diverse women so that they can confidently own their voice as an expert and become role models for the next generation of impact makers.  Amazing, that is very punchy and perfectly describes Penny, and so if you're ready to turn your intentions into that impact, and you can start living your legacy.

By standing fully in your voice, then Penny is the right person to chat to. And I'm excited to dive into her brain because it's very incredible the things that she comes out with. So let's, let's talk to Penny. Welcome Penny to the podcast. Actually can't believe I haven't had you on the podcast yet.

We've known each other for so long. Can you please tell everyone a little bit more about who you are and what you do? Oh, absolutely. And it's an absolute pleasure to be here and always a pleasure to hang out with you. Um, so I'm Penny Lacasso. I call myself a behavioral scientist, and basically I help ambitious female leaders make sustainable behavior change that enables them to make their mark in the world whilst living a meaningful life.

Oh, what a one liner. I love it. So you have a pretty I've been working on that for a while. I love it. I love it when you say to people like, Oh my God, you just nailed that. And it's like, that only took me 10 years.  I love it. And I, so you have a pretty like famous origin story, I would say, cause you've had media coverage about how you got started in business.

So can you share your story? I think it's very amazing, you know, turning your life upside down and doing what you've done. I mean, I've been part of witnessing and being part of your journey for like, since 2021, I think, and even in a short time you've done so much. So, you know, tell us a little bit more about your, Where you've been, what you've been doing and how you got into business.

Well, it's funny, you know, I'm 50 this year and. I feel, um, not old, but I don't feel old at all. I actually said, but I, when I, when I say, God, I've been in business for 30 years, I'm like, how, like, where, where did, how did that happen? So, um, the first 16 years, um, of the career that's kind of pertinent was spent as an executive in a global giant, which was Shell.

Um, I was very fortunate at the age of 22 that, um, there was me and one other person that were off, well, that applied for this job. We were shortlisted, um, for this e commerce administrator job, which e commerce was like the latest thing. And luckily, I had some experience in it and no one else did. And so it turned out they offered the job to an internal candidate and she declined.

So I got the job and I doubled my salary overnight. And that was the beginning of an amazing career where I just kept getting tapped on the shoulder for all of these opportunities that, and I'm sure there's many women that listen to this, that I would never have thought. I was not, not capable, but I just wouldn't have seen myself in that role.

I was like, oh, well, I don't have that experience. So, but Shell was very good at seeing people who could get shit done, um, and had the capacity to learn quickly. And so I spent 16 years there. I climbed the corporate ladder and at the age of 39, I found myself with everything you could possibly want. First world problem.

You know, I always say I. I was over in Perth on an expat job with all my expenses paid, and I even had the frickin white picket fence.  But I found myself, um, with a young son, and, um, all I was doing was spending my time busy working for the future, and all he wanted was my time. And I started to question things, and I realized that I wasn't fulfilled in my career, and I wasn't showing up for him in the way that he needed me.

I asked myself, what is it that makes me happy? And when I realized what the answer to that was, which was human connection, positively impacting the lives of others, sharing experiences and being present, I did something crazy. And within seven months, I turned my whole life upside down in pursuit of happiness.

So I left the 16 year career, the half a million dollar salary, relocated my family from Perth back to Melbourne, left an 18 year relationship and started my own purpose driven company. We have no idea what I was doing.  Oh, I've got literally have goosebumps, even though I've heard your story so many times.

It's so powerful. Like I imagine so many people hearing that story that has ever heard it. It's like, what the hell was she thinking? And I think you, you have those moments a lot, right? Like we've had those conversations and you're like, you got to think I'm crazy. That was like your opening line. You're going to think I'm crazy.

But, whatever, but every time, I think it's so powerful. I was actually having this conversation yesterday, like, you get to a certain point in your life where you realize what's really important and everyone has it at like different stages. It's almost like your little midlife crisis, quarter life crisis, whatever it is.

But I guess the sooner you have it, the better, because then the sooner you can kind of step into where you want to be. And I met, we met these travelers, they've had their midlife crisis, they're now documenting it on YouTube. They left their jobs in Queensland and are now traveling. They're in their fifties around Southeast Asia for a year.

And the guy was like, I have to put my notice in. I'm on long service on Wednesday. And I'm like shitting myself. And it's like that to  have the courage to do that takes a lot. What  I just, it's crazy because if you think like. You know, you, we were just talking about before how much work, you know, it takes to do on your mindset.

Like, when you made this decision, what were the people around you saying? Like, what was that experience like? I will never forget it, Mariah. It's such a good question. And so,  no one left Shell.  No one left because you got paid so much money and the conditions were so good. And even though it was, you know, you worked hard.

Um, you were paid handsomely for, and you were like, I worked with amazing people. I didn't not like the people. I had some of my best friends were there and, um, I've still, to this day, some of those people are my clients now, many of them.  And so what was really interesting when I told people I was leaving and I didn't have a plan to have another, to go to another job,  people told me I was crazy,  like literally.

And it was, it came from a place of, of love and concern. They were like, What are you doing? Like, why would you leave? This is crazy. Um, and then, and that was like, I'd only just left the job. I hadn't done all the other stuff.  And then they were like, what the hell is she doing? Like, literally, you know, I was like, I'm doing this.

And I, and back then I was started to share the journey on social media. And I don't know why, but. Again, a lot of people weren't doing that, especially on LinkedIn in the corporate world. Like no one was there blowing up a very successful career and going, I'm just going to start a business. I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm going to call myself something completely new. Um, and try and convince you that that's what I am.  And. You know, so there was a lot of people telling me I was crazy and it's so interesting to me how those people that told me I was crazy and like I say, it came from a place of care and concern  that basically have become my biggest advocates because they followed the journey and because I've shared the journey so honestly.

And not sugarcoated the fact that, you know, it has been challenging, but it's been so damn rewarding. Um, they, like the amount of clients I get from those people and, you know, keynotes and coaching clients. It's amazing because, like I said, they've watched and they back me and they trust me.  Yeah, that's, and I think that's what makes storytelling and showing up authentically so powerful, like you doing it 16 years ago, like, we're now talking about why you should show up authentically and share your story and you're like, please, that was me.

I've been doing it this whole time. Like, this is not new for me, but it's just, and it's amazing how The people that you meet along the way can really, you know, business can come from any different angle and it doesn't always have to be from that random, you know, person that finds you on a Facebook ad or whatever.

It literally can come from your backyard. Like I, I can totally resonate. I have the same things happen all the time. Just like random. Oh, this person told me about you or. Because we love to share recommendations with people. Like if someone says like, you know, there's like Facebook statuses, like, does anyone recommend a plumber?

Like, we love jumping in on that and sharing, like. Who could help? Because we always want to have answers for people, so I think it's so powerful to like, have that sort of pipeline without intentionally having that. Like, you just don't know where people are coming from, who are watching. We have these conversations all the time, and you're like, I just got this email from someone that's been following me for like, five years.

They were like, even in the last week, like I've had an executive, an ex executive from universal and death row records in the U S who's now gone out on her own to ethically represent, um, artists in LA. Like we're talking massive names.  Uh, she saw me speak in L. A. five years ago before COVID and she wants to join my Impact Makers program.

Um, yesterday I was with a senior executive who heads up sustainability at Xero and I'm like, how the hell did you find me? She wants to come on over. Like, I'm just like, and you know, um, I'm currently working with, uh, the head of people, uh, globally for one of the biggest, um, uh, what would you say? Um, Agencies, communications and advertising agencies in the world.

I just feel so, um, I'm not going to say humbled because I'm not going to downplay it. I've worked bloody hard for where I am and I'm damn good at what I do. And we'll get into why I speak so boldly about that because I have to for other women, um, as we go on. But, um, I, it just blows me away the women that you attract.

And again, all of these people have come through word of mouth.  Yeah. It's so powerful. And, you know, you showing up so authentically when they stalk you and they, you know, whatever they do, they continue to see that journey. And I think that's so powerful to be so consistent in that and be so true. Like there's so many conversations, you know, you've, you've had it all.

You've had like people disagree with you in comments you've had, like, and to keep pushing through that and keep showing up is so inspiring. And one of the things that you started shifting talking about was. Being an expert, expertise and being seen as an expert in  our fields and I want to talk about this.

So  how did you become this expert in talking about, yeah, showing up and owning your expertise? How did this come about and, and why, why do we talk about this and why is it so important?  Um,  I think that the origin is, and you will know this because you've been with me, um, supporting me all the way from a, you know, um, content perspective, but COVID, COVID was a nightmare and a gift.

So COVID gifted me the opportunity of space and time where I wasn't traveling around the world speaking because I couldn't. And it allowed me to say, well, if this is what the world's going to be like indefinitely, what am I going to do that I've always wanted to do, but never done?  And I decided to go back to university at the age of, I think it was like 46 and study psychology.

And this year, so I'm now nearly finished my honours. I'm considering going into a PhD next year. Um, if not again, I think I'm crazy. I think the PhD is what he's calling me, which is another four years. Um, But what happened was, um, I've been studying, and I'm a bit different in the way that I study in that I directly try and apply what I'm learning as I go.

And my lecturers keep saying, you're the only person in this program that's taking what they're learning. You don't call yourself a psychologist, because I can't, but I can still apply the learning so that I get better at it for when I am qualified. And one of the things that I surprised myself with was I studied stats, um, advanced statistics and started getting very high marks for it and, uh, realized that I actually love research and I do like statistics when I thought I hated them.

And decided off the back of that, I think I surprised myself so much, it kind of married or the timing married up with me spending a lot of time with coaching clients and prospective clients and all of these women, like the ones I've just shared with you, were phenomenal high performers, were brilliant.

so much. at what they did were definitely experts in their field and not one of them called themselves that. And so I think, you know, you have those moments where the dots connect and you get really curious and I'm like, why will these women not call themselves experts? Like what is going on here? So what they teach you in psychology is the first part of any research is to go and do a review of the literature.

So what research exists to explain what you're seeing? And so I dug into the library, and what I found was that there was no research around understanding how a woman's relationship with the word expert impacts her ability to become one. And yet we had an absolute Absolute lack of female experts globally in both the media in, um, on conference stages.

So less than, I think it's 20% of expert voices in the media are women globally, and it's less than 30% of experts on stages globally. So we are talking about positions of power and influence positions where you can actually change. Uh, the things that we don't agree with in society and we are so underrepresented, yet we're 50 percent of the population.

So I was like, you know what? I'm going to go out and do my own qualitative research. And I am going to explain why, or my belief was that most women have a negative relationship with the word expert. That was the hypotheses. And that's, uh, it impacts their, their willingness to put themselves out there as that.

And that's exactly what I went out there to understand. And that's what I found.  So I created a white paper, which went a bit bananas, um, and also all over social media. Um, and it was called hidden figures where all the female experts.  Oh, it was so great. And you know, one of those ideas like you're going to think I'm crazy, but I think I need to dive into this more.

Like, you know, you'd flown back from the Gold Coast and we were house sitting and you're like, um, so this just came to me on the plane. And I feel like. I need to just go with it. And I think one of the things, the themes on your, your journey is really like taking those nudges and just going for it.

Because what, you know, I feel like in your mind, you're like, it just makes sense for me to go down this path because what I've got so much to gain, you know what I mean? Like, you just have that mindset of like, Oh, I've I can just gain so much from just going down this path because you're feeling, feeling really like that's in intuition, right?

You're just like,  And you just highlighted something right and this is why I love these conversations with you because you know me so well and you've known me for so long and we work so closely together is that you know my tagline. It's almost like. When I say out loud, you're going to think I'm crazy.

That's the signal to say this is the right thing to do. Because it's the crazy stuff, like we were saying before we hit record, you know, we are in a sea of sameness. There is so much of the same because everyone's trying to jump on a trend on Instagram, right? And so, or everyone wants a quick fix. So it's like, give me the template so that I can do this.

And here's the template for the next 20 sales emails you need to write.  We, we are so much more the same, I reckon, in the way that we communicate in the way that we sell our businesses than ever. And so when I get this, this is crazy and I know it's going to be hard and I know it's going to be a massive piece of work where I don't know exactly what all the steps are.

I've learned that that is where the differentiation is. That is what connects with people. That is what helps you stand out. And that's the staff that solidifies you as an expert.  Yeah, that's a really good point because also to like, we want that, like, even as a business owner, like, Oh, it'll be so easy if I just go down this path, but then you lose sight of why you started.

And an interesting point was, you know, two, three years ago when Reels came out, you know, there was a really clear road that I could have just become like an Instagram Reels. Um, and I went, no, content marketing, content strategy, that is key. They're the foundations. I need to keep talking about that storytelling, all those things.

And it's hard because you've filled with all the noise of people scaling or, you know, so they say, you know, probably got not much profit and a lot of expenses. Um, but you know, you see all those glorified things on social media and you go like, Oh, maybe I should just go here, but that doesn't feel aligned to me.

And I think the people that. Don't like stay true to their authenticity end up, you know, we talked, you talked about this last year, like with the, with business, it's not that hockey stick. It's not just like you rise, it's a roller coaster. And the sooner you realize that in life and stick to your authenticity and what you truly believe in, that's where you get the results.

But obviously there's all this noise on social media, pulling us in different directions. And that's why I think like saying so true. To who you are is so important. And the work that you do in like helping women identify what it is, who they are and what impact they want to have helps them stay in that lane because there's so many swimmers, you can like, you know, divert all the time.

Well, it's funny when you talk about swim, you know, swimming in the sea of sameness and it's, I mean, the magic is, and they've always said this is in swimming against the school, right?  But again, we have such a bias to convenience and to the quick fix and to moving quickly and getting success quickly, but it doesn't come quickly because the quick fixes isn't what delivers it.

It's the convenience doesn't deliver success. And that's, I think, you know, we've talked a lot about, um, toxic productivity, this kind of doom loop that is associated with, you know, if I, if I make everything more convenient, the more I can shortcut and shortcut and shortcut, the more product, the more space I'll create and the more productive I can become.

But what I say is that every convenience hack means that the space that's created just gets filled with more crap.  Not, not more creativity because creativity is seen as inefficient. Yeah. And what I've found, you know, especially like the work that we've done in the campaigns that I've run over the last couple of years with Wonder Woman versus the present woman with the hidden figures campaign, that is me stepping away from convenience.

That is me stepping away from the quick fix. The white paper and the research took me five months. You know this from that. That moment, that conversation where it was, I've got a crazy idea. It was five months of my life where I didn't do anything else other than that and study.  And, and I made, you know, there was a financial sacrifice that went with that because I wasn't providing myself as much, like there's always sacrifice with doing these things.

But the impact of that in terms of net. International Women's Day is in four weeks time. The opportunities I have got off the back of that white paper that was published in October last year, we're now in February. It continues to be a credibility stamp. It is timeless because there's no other research that exists like it.

And now it turns on a whole host of other opportunities.  Yeah. And that's just the,  yeah, exactly. Put the words in my mouth. It's so true. It's such a benefit of like sticking to what makes you true. Like what you feel like you truly believe to be the reality of what you're in. And I think we can get lost in it so easily.

So your research talks a lot about expert  and, and women of impact stepping into, I guess, like, owning their space, whatever that looks like. So based on your research, how do you now define what an expert is? We know what, well, you can share what it used to be because we had many debates about how ridiculous some of these definitions were, but what do you say now because of that research?

This is women of impact. This is what defines you as an expert.  So it's interesting because I did a lot of reading around how we scientifically define what an expert is to start with. And that definition, um, was a person with extensive knowledge or ability based on research experience or occupation and in a particular area of study, which I was like, well, that's, can I swear?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fucking boring. And I'm like, that relates to no woman ever that wants to have an impact, right? I read that and go, there is nothing that connects with me about that definition. And it's certainly like, if you and I think about the women we look up to who are impact makers and experts in their field, I would never.

Say, oh, she has a scientific body of knowledge with a particular area of it. I'm like, no, that's not. I would say this is a person that is driven by impact, who is invested through deliberate practice in building and sharing their extensive knowledge and experience in a particular area for the greater good.

That's my definition of an expert. Oh, that's a good one. I love it. And yeah, so, and you know, a lot of the research that you did talked a lot, as you said, like about males and, you know, there was this like element of like  when women thought of what an expert was, they didn't see themselves. And I mean, I took part in your research and like,  it was so hard for me to go like, Oh yeah, I'm there because I don't think I am.

And one of the things that you spoke about was like, For example, a woman goes for a job, she feels like she needs to tick every box, but then a male would only tick, I can't remember how many you said, like it was only a couple of boxes, right? Like, you know, like I've got two or three out of five. I'm all good.

I got this. I can take this job tomorrow. A woman's like, oh, four out of five. I'm just missing out. Oh, well, I won't apply.  So we want all of this. We got to tick every box. And that's, I mean, if we talk about, if you want the, the kind of four themes that came through in the race. Definitely. And so I call this the expert effect.

Okay. And, um, there were four. So the first one that you've just touched on is what I call the ick of expert. So this was basically saying that the word expert makes most women feel ick. Like it gives them a visceral response. And so what we found was that women's relationship with the word expert is complex and it feels awkward for many women, particularly calling themselves that even if they are, because the word, um, and I quote, one of the women said, can infer peacocking, like big noting yourself.

Yeah. And some women said that it actually stimulated a visual of a man's face.  So they, when they thought of an expert immediately, it was like, you know, a man in a suit with glasses.  Yeah. The second thing that came out was how much is enough. And this comes to your point of ticking boxes, right? Women love to tick boxes.

I don't know why we just love it. We love it to do list. We love to tick boxes. So what was fascinating was that. Um, when I asked women, uh, what were the, they were like, well, I'm like, why? Why don't you call yourself an expert? And they were like, well, I haven't ticked all the boxes. And I'm like, okay, so what are the boxes you need to tick?

And they couldn't tell me.  Now here's where it got really interesting, right? So what happened was because they didn't know which boxes to tick, it was no matter what they did, it was never enough.  Okay. So they could never get there because the goalpost was elusive. However, I was like, okay, so let's, let's work out what the boxes are they need to tick.

So I was like, you tell me, who are the women you look up to as experts that are massive impact makers? And immediately they could roll off three or four women. I'm like, okay, so what are the qualities in that woman that make that woman an expert in your mind? And they reeled them off. And so what I did was I created a checklist of all the boxes women need to tick in order to call themselves an expert based on what women told me.

And you can download that website, hackinghappy. co as a free tool. If you're a box ticker and you need clarity, being an expert, no more excuses.  It's called the expert checklist. Okay. I've made it really damn easy. Um, so what I wanted to do was provide the clarity for women to know which boxes to tick.

But when you download that tool, there's one caveat to using it. And it's that you can't tick every fricking box before yourself. You call yourself an expert because we know that you're competing with men that have the same skills and often less skills than you. And they're out there calling themselves an expert and they haven't ticked all the boxes.

So own it, baby.  The third one was, I'm afraid.  And so what was fascinating, we talked a lot about social media and social media definitely feeds into these women are terrified of criticism and being exposed as an imposter when they put themselves out there and fully own their voice and their truth, which we've spoken a lot about today.

And so a lot of these amazing women shared with me that. They had very strong opinions about things that they would never publicly put out there, that I think would be very powerful in terms of the impact that they seek to have, because they were worried about, like, I have been being torn apart on social media through comments and keyboard warriors.

Um, and equally, They didn't want to stand on stage, well, they did want to stand on stages, but they wouldn't allow themselves to be an expert on stage because they were worried that someone would call bullshit on something, anything that they said, and that they would be exposed, um, not as the expert that they were trying to be.

And then the last thing, like, all of this is not surprising, but the nuances is what blew me away. So if I can't see it, I can't be, it was the last thing. And so we've heard this before in terms of diversity and inclusion, but what was fascinating was that the women shared that the lack of visible diverse Female experts on stages meant that they, if they couldn't see themselves in those experts, they didn't think that those opportunities existed for them.

And that impacted their ability to put themselves forward for those opportunities. Now what was fascinating was that when they spoke about diversity, the lack of diversity, they weren't just talking in terms of the color of someone's skin.  What they spoke about was the shape and the size of the women on stages, or women that don't look, you know, like, I hate to say it, but like me, you know, I'm a white woman, I'm middle age, I come from a professional background, you know, I'm not the minority in this domain.

I am the majority. And so, um, they were talking at shape and size predominantly and equally people who don't identify with a gender.  Um, where are those people? Why aren't we seeing them on stages?  So I thought that was fascinating. So long story, but they were the four themes that fell out. And I still, when I talk about them to this day, I'm just like,  there's so, there's so much more research that could be done in this space.

Oh yeah. A hundred percent. And isn't it so interesting that, you know, this is a whole other can of worms that like size of a woman is like something like, but men, you know, we, we don't even think about it. Right. I saw the other day, like. I don't know, one of the shameless podcasts, we're talking about the girl's eyelashes.

Like, would we be talking about a man's eyelashes? Like, why is this still a conversation? You know, the issue is that though, and again, I'll, I'll have an opinion that's perhaps maybe does polarize people. My issue with that is I feel like unconsciously, we feel like it's like the world, um, they're speaking about our eyelashes or men.

They. bagging our eyelashes and highlighting these things. The thing that I have observed is often the biggest critiques of or criticisers of women are women.  And I just want to put that out there because I think we talk about, you know, um, these we're talking about women's eyelashes and that's not nice.

It kind of infers  that it's, um, it's them and us.  But I see a lot of the criticism coming from other women. Yeah. No, they would, they were two women talking about another woman, like, isn't it crazy?  And that's the thing, like we, we want to rise together, but we don't, it doesn't happen. And it's just, yeah, it's all very crazy.

And as you said, there's just so much more research that you could do into like all of these elements. And I think. anyone listening could at least go, I, I can feel like I'm all of them  or at least, you know, multiple, because that does really hold us back. So in your research, you had recommendations. And I think we'll definitely put a link for people to read it.

Cause it's so fascinating what you shared. What are some of the, and you mentioned one before you're like, I've worked really hard for where I am. And the point of me, um, sharing that is because of what I do, you have to own that. And you are an example for a lot of us going like.  And you've said that people said like, if Penny can do it, why can't I?

And I think that's so powerful. So in terms of showing up with confidence to be seen, to be heard, to be like, I know what I'm talking about. Listen to me. What are some of the recommendations or some of the pieces of advice that you have given a lot of the women you're working with to be like, own your impact because no one else can own it for you, right?

No. And I mean, no, you would have heard me say this a thousand times. But it's, it's so true, right? The language you use determines your ability to make change. And all of us have the availability of our own language. It is right in front of us. We can change it if we want to. And so the reason that I was so curious about understanding A woman's relationship with the word expert was because if it was negative, we have a beautiful opportunity to reframe it.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the most proven effective psychological tools we have. And it's reframing the words we use, because if we say it, say the opposite often enough, eventually our brain believes it. Okay. And so the first thing that I advocate for women who go, Oh, tick, tick, tick, all men, if this relates to men equally, I haven't done the research on men.

I spoke recently at a conference. It was a number of engineering men in the room who were introverts. And they said they could definitely relate to all of these. So I'm not saying this doesn't relate to men. I'm just saying my research is focused on women. Yeah. I think my partner, Mitch could definitely resonate with a lot of things you say too.

Yeah. And so, um, the first thing is get curious as a woman about your relationship with the word expert. Now I'm a massive journaler. And so when I say get curious, I just get a bit of pen and paper, create a little bit of space and sit down and ask yourself, how does the word expert make you feel?  Why does it make you feel that way?

If you call yourself an expert, what goes on in your body? Where do you feel it? Like, just get curious, right?  So there's a beautiful, um, technique called RAIN, which is done by Tara Brach, who's one of the most renowned trauma therapists in the world. And basically, when we have these feelings, adverse feelings towards something like the word expert, we recognize what the feeling is.

Yeah. We acknowledge it. Like it exists. You can't pretend that it doesn't. If we suppress it, it will only, um, create maladaptive behaviors that do not service. Yeah. We investigate it. And then we show ourselves, um, a little bit of nurturing self compassion.  And by nurturing self compassion, it's like, okay, now I have all of this information because feelings are just information.

How I feel about the word expert is just information. It's not facts.  What would it look like for me to have, perhaps change my relationship with that word in order to be able to understand the fact that it is the pathway to realizing the impact that I seek to have in the world.  Because what came out of the research was that whilst most of these women doing amazing things didn't want to call themselves an expert, what they did want to do was have a massive impact.

They wanted to make the world a better place and often that was through doing some sort of helping in their work.  And so the way that I have tried to convince women to actually invest in understanding their relationship and trying to reframe it has been this is, this is the gateway that you've been looking for to create the opportunities to have the impact that you seek to have in the world and create, you know, turn that ripple into a wave in terms of making people's lives better.

That seems to resonate. That seems to be a catalyst. Hmm.  So that's the first thing that I've said. The other thing is, and I talk about, you would have heard me talk about this a thousand times,  being an expert requires acts of micro bravery.  Micro bravery is how we build resilience. And if you want to be an expert, you need resilience.

If you want to live your impact, you need resilience. Because like we said, it is going to be a roller coaster. Great things are going to happen on your journey and shit things are going to happen. We cannot change that. But resilience. This enables us to  pick ourselves up quicker and keep moving towards the aspiration of the impact that we seek to have.

Microbravery enables us to build that resilience, and that's doing one small thing every day that makes you feel uncomfortable but is aligned. with the impact that you seek to have in the world. So it could be reaching out to that person that you've admired and asking them to be on your podcast. For example, it could be, um, asking someone for example, for a coffee day and saying, I'd love to pick your brain.

I think you're amazing. Um, But that's something you wouldn't, it could be turning up at a networking event when you don't know anybody in a completely different industry. It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it makes you feel uncomfortable, allowing yourself to do that in the service of the impact you seek and putting yourself out there for expert opportunities is how you start to become the thing that you want to be.

Yeah, your micro bravery is amazing because not everyone can quit their, um, corporate job and move their family across the world in an instant, right? So you would have built that resilience over time to then be able to make those massive moves. So I think whenever you talk about like small steps, I think it resonates so much with me because then you look back over like a five year period, two year period and you go, Whoa, I've never been able to do that.

I actually relate this to when I first started driving on my L's and how scary driving is on your L's for the first time and you feel sick and you don't want to drive and you're like, I don't know how to do this compared to when you get your license and you've now been driving for 10, 20 years. You just get in the car and you don't think about it.

Such a perfect analogy, because we know what it felt like. Or when you get your first job, when I first started working at Kmart, I didn't want to be on the registers, put me on the door. I'm too scared to break the machine. By the end, I'm team leader, I'm putting like, thousands of dollars in the safe. You know what I mean?

Like, it's the same thing. Like, what you found scary a year ago, you won't find scary now. And then, if you keep doing those small steps. So, I absolutely think that's, That's amazing advice because there's no, as you say, fast track to stepping into your impact and, you know, owning it. Like I'm in my first Instagram live, I was like shaking like a leaf at my house.

I'm like, I'm going to go live to message like, just go. And I'm like, I don't know. And I was like, everyone, no one cares. You know what I mean? Like, this is the thing. It's like, we think that we were going to do this thing and the world is going to be watching and everyone's ready. Just waiting for us to become a disaster.

And they're not. They're too busy in their own lives. No one's paying attention. They, what makes people pay attention is consistency. Okay. And this is again, this is what the existing literature says around people who are experts. What makes a person an expert? What makes someone top in their field is deliberate practice.

So it is consistently showing up every day. Yeah. Even when you don't feel like it and doing the things that you need to do.  And like, that's, that's what's gotten, I mean, I'm 10 years in, I love when people come to me and they're like, okay, I want to do the things that you've done and I'd like to do it all in the next, you know, two years.

And I'm like, I can't help you. Like, I just can't help you. I'm not, that's not how this process works. Yeah.  Yeah. It's exponential growth, right? Time and consistency. And it's the compounding effect of what you just said, the small, consistent things that you do every day. So I've become fascinated in the last sort of five months and I think I've always unconsciously been this, but in our system and when I, at system sounds like such a technical word, right?

But I think it's the right word for what I'm trying to explain. So all of us have a daily system and that system is the culmination of all of the habits because I think it's something like 80 percent of what we do is the same. You know, every day we just don't repeat.  And so when you understand your system and you optimize that system to get you to where you want to be quicker, right?

Doing those micro things every day consistently has a compounding effect. James Clear talks about 1 percent better every day. You know, the, the impact of that 1 percent better every day, I think it was something like it makes you 73 times better by the end of the year. That's a competitive edge.  But most people can't, um, or won't invest the time analyzing the system and saying where in the system is this not serving me?

And rest would be a great example of thing, something that's not built in people's system, and creativity. Two examples of two things that are profound.  Profoundly important in terms of your productivity, you know, your ability to disrupt and think creatively. Like if we don't create space in our system for creativity and for the brain and the body to recharge.

And I'm not just talking about sleeping at night. I'm talking about micro recharges in the day. Then it's very hard. To become an expert, because it's a long, consistent, disciplined, challenging game, but like,  isn't that what anything worthwhile  is?  Yep. And it's the thing, like, you don't one day just wake up and go like, oh, yep, ticked all the boxes of life, I can now, like,  do nothing.

Like, it's just, you always, like, it's, it, it really is a journey, you know, not everyone loves the word journey. But that's what it is. And when you accept that that's what it is and just go, you know, do those things consistently. And I think the interesting thing with creativity and rest is because it doesn't have that instant, you can't see it.

And it's the same with what you say, if you can't see it, you can't be it. So cause you can't see that result instantly from the next day, you go, ah, waste of time. Sleep when I'm dead, or rest when I'm dead, you know? And that's the diet, right? It's like, and women, any woman listening to this will know this, right?

Because, so it's like the diet, it's like, you know, you're great for four weeks, and then you're like, oh, well, I'm not, like, I was expecting ten kilos to be gone.  And you're like, oh, well, fuck it, tomorrow, I'll just go back, you know, like, it's, it's not working. Yeah. It's like, well, basically it does work. Yeah.

And that's, it's a really important. It's just like music to my ears because I think people just get such a rush to just get everything done. And I'm more like, come on, we can do like, give it time. Obviously there's a difference between like knowing whether you're just not aligned to something and you need to stop doing it and just going.

This is hard. Like, you know, you think of Amazon story. He was starting his basement with like the Amazon sign, you know, like everyone starts somewhere and we're always, and that's the problem with social media is we're always just comparing ourselves to everyone else. And you just go, especially, you know, you have a client that, well, I want to be where you are.

And it's like, you're comparing yourself to a journey that you haven't seen from day one. Yeah. And you, and a journey that you've just started, I mean, like, and I'm not saying it's a, it's only about time, but I'm like, there are, you know, it's about a lot of things, but  I, I don't, I know people that are  uber successful.

You know, I've got friends that have from scratch created companies with 150 million, but. Again, none of them were like, Oh, I woke up. I had a great idea. And within a week, the money just started coming in.  It's just not real. It doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, it's not just about time. It's about all the dedication and hard work.

And like you said before, I'm not going to humble myself. I'm not going to be humble and say like, Oh, I don't know how you know how you got there. You worked really hard for it. And there's a lot of times where. You know, you sacrifice things, as you say, you do all the things, but it's because you really want something.

And not everyone understands that. So it's hard when obviously you've got people in your circle, like a lot of business owners, maybe it's their partner, their parents, their friends. They don't always understand what they're trying to achieve and do. And that's why it's really important to find people around you and look up to people to have in your space to look up to.

So you can go, ah, yeah, like. They get it. Not everyone does, but at least I've got people in my corner that do.  Absolutely. And, and this also, and this is why I think time does play some role. There is an element of luck, right? And when I say luck, it's like timing. Yeah. You, you can have a brilliant idea, but the time might not be right.

Okay, and so that that is a component that is outside of your control, but by playing a long game, the likelihood of that moment lining up somewhere, you know, in that 10 years is much higher than it lining up in six months.  That's my, that's my really great point. The other thing that I love that you said is this beautiful quote, and it's so simple, but I think it speaks beautifully to what you were saying about the difference between comparing journeys when you're at the start and I'm, you know, 10 years in is, um, every expert was once a beginner.

And I think we forget that we see the expert and it's like, Oh, that must be gifted. They woke up that way.  And I'm reading a brilliant book at the moment, exactly on this topic.  And it's, All evidence based. It's like, this is the, this is the guy of experts globally. He's been studying it for 35 years. It's called PEAK.

How all of us can achieve extraordinary things. And all of the, um, science and research about experts, like 30 years worth of it, states that it's not that people are born exceptionally gifted.  It's that often these amazing people like Mozart, for example, right, it's that they start their practice, their deliberate practice, this system of consistency from around the age of three.

Yeah.  Right. So you think about that, that can't not have an effect. If I start playing tennis at three and someone else starts playing at 16.  I definitely have an advantage. Yeah.  Um, and so yeah, brilliant book, highly recommended. Yeah. That sounds really great. And Robert pool. Yeah. And, and it's exactly what you say, like experts aren't born, they're made, you know, that was sort of a big tagline that you had, like, that's what it is.

And actually there's so much in that, that's a whole other episode anyway, but, um, you know, like, and it's just, it's so true. Like people don't just. they're not born, like, you know, obviously some people have money, some people have privilege, some people have all this, but like,  there's so many stories of people who get rejected, you know, like, I think it's like Stephen King's, all of his manuscripts were rejected.

You know, a hundred publishers rejected it.  All those stories, nothing just gets handed to you on a platter. And if it does, it's boring. It doesn't make for a good story. So I don't think you appreciate it. And you don't. That's why they say, I think it's something like, I don't know, statistics over 50 percent of people who win the lottery.

Um, within two years, everything's gone, gone. Yeah, no, that is. And I, I believe that there is obviously a connection between, um, you valuing something based on how hard you've had to work to get it. A hundred percent. I couldn't agree more on that. That, that is a great way to end the episode. I've already gone over a little bit of your time because we were chatting at the start, just catching up.

So. I'll have your links in the show notes, your white paper, your checklist, how people can connect. But where do you spend most of your time? Where are you hanging out? We spoke about your sort of deliberate intention to maybe shift away from the IG. So where else can people find you and learn your genius?

So you'll see a nine grid on IG, I'm just having a hiatus as a test around abandoning the sea of sameness. So I'm over on, I spend a lot of time over on LinkedIn, um, just trying to have a different perspective on things and challenging others to be open to shifting their perspective in the service of their growth and the impact that they can have in the world from a positive perspective.

Yes, and I can guarantee connecting with Penny will give you a lot to think about. Your posts are very, they make me think a lot, so if you need to, you know, and just shift perspective, as you say, and just create conversation, and I think, um, the content that you create and the part of your journey you share is Um, and it's really great example of great content and, and thought leadership and just showing up authentically.

So if you ever need a role model, and Penny's been doing it a long time, as she said, when she started sharing her journey on social media. So it's definitely someone to go and follow, but thank you so much, Penny, for chatting. I really loved our conversation. You always get me thinking, you always get me inspired and motivated.

So thank you so much. I loved it. Thank you. Now as you. Can hear in the podcast. I've known Penny for quite a while now, and there's so much that she's taught me in that time that I've known her and she has so much more to offer because her brain is just incredible. I could talk to her all day,  but I want you to think about how you see yourself, how you view yourself as you show up in your business.

It doesn't matter what your field is or the impact you want to have, how do you view yourself? Is there comparison, imposter syndrome,  self doubt,  like what comes up? I think all of them for me, personally.  Check out Penny's White Paper because there's a lot of interesting takeaways from it. And of course, download her checklist because it will definitely help you.

But I'd love to know what you think. Do you see yourself as an expert? Do you consider yourself a thought leader? What do you think? I'm very interested. But  that's the episode. Have a think about it. Ponder it. I'd love to know what comes up for you as you listen to it.  Be a content queen or king and remember that developing your strategy and your story develops your business and your impact, of course.

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to share this with all your business and entrepreneurial friends. You could do this by adding it to your insta stories and tagging me at contentqueenmariah or just tell them about it. If you do love guests like Penny, rates, reviews, all the things help me get more amazing guests on like Penny.

So please take five minutes to do that. I love you forever. And you can follow me on Instagram. I'm back. You can follow me there. TikTok might be somewhere I put a little bit more energy into than,  than previous times. And let me know any topics you want me to talk about in the future. I would love to cover it and I will talk to you soon.

Bye.

PodcastMariah MacInnesmarketing, marketing advice, how to be authentic online, business ownerComment